Loren Bell (00:00)
In ranger school, for example, it's the winter, we're in North Georgia, it's negative five out, we just walked up this big hill, I think we were almost done. The guy next to me had passed his patrols, which is what you have to do to go to the next phase.But he had rubber neck, which is when the back of your neck gives out and you can't pick your head up. And so he's completed this whole phase with rubber neck. He passed his patrol, he's sitting next to me, he's like, dude, I can't take it anymore.I couldn't believe it. I was just like, dude, you're done. Like the next phase is easy.Adam Callinan (00:30)
the fact that there's a known thing that happens that's called a rubber neck where the muscles to the back of your neck say F it and stop working. And that's just like a thing that happens is again, this is this is all like the resets of perspective that I think are so helpful.Loren Bell (00:35)
Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. see you guys. You guys, yeah, you see like a group of guys walking around like candy canes and you're just like, huh,Adam Callinan (01:16)
Our guest today is Loren Bell. Loren spent 20 years in special operations in the US military, in the Air Force, in and alongside the most elite fighting units in the history of mankind. Some of which you may have heard of, many of which we civilians will never ever hear of. Loren came out of that experience, retired about a year and a half or two years ago, with a particular set of skills that actually make him really good at being an entrepreneur.going through the things that the men and women that operate at that level deal with the duress and the ups and downs and the dealing with and mitigating risk. And I'm not talking like lose money risk that we deal with in entrepreneurship, real risk like you die or lose a limb. When they exit that and come into civilian, it is just an amazing translation to being able to deal with the required durability in operating businesses and whatnot. So.It's a really, really exciting, enjoyable conversation. I'm really happy to share. Please enjoy this conversation with my friend, Loren Bell.Adam Callinan (02:23)
You ready? Let's go.Loren Bell (02:25)
Not really, but let's do it. I was more, I mean, I don't like talk about myself, so.Adam Callinan (02:27)
You're not really ready?Neither do I. Welcome to the club.Loren Bell (02:33)
Yeah.Adam Callinan (02:38)
So let's start with how we know each other.where you come from. And I don't mean physically, like what have you been doing for the last 20 years?Loren Bell (02:49)
Yeah, so, High level... Okay.Adam Callinan (02:51)
High level, we'll get into details. I also thinkwe should probably establish a safe word.Loren Bell (02:58)
No, I'll be good. I'm fine. Yeah. Yeah. Plus, I'm editing it, so I can cut whatever out.Adam Callinan (02:59)
Okay, all right.Yeah, yeah, well I want to I want to try to avoidhaving to cut like big chunks out So if if we go into territory and you need to say pineapple just say pineapple Okay, sweetLoren Bell (03:13)
Okay, that's it.Adam Callinan (03:16)
So yeah, how did we meet?Loren Bell (03:19)
So we met at Big Sky Bravery. I was a recipient, you were a volunteer. It was actually something I wasn't even planning on doing. I was at the tail end of my career and somebody had suggested me to do it. I was kind of, no, those things aren't for me. I don't really want to do those volunteer or those charity things and those kind of things.Adam Callinan (03:40)
So for contextfor the listener who doesn't yet know what big sky bravery is, we big sky braver is an organization here in Montana that we take active duty, special operations, men and women out into the Montana wilderness for a week or five nights of just sort of like decompression. You get to, you know, meet.civilians that you don't normally have access to, but these are all active duty people working in special operations. So it's generally in between deployments and whatnot. So, so you were, you were on one of those, we call them task forces. So you came out on a task force as a recipient. you were at the tail end of your career. I mean, you had like a year left.Loren Bell (04:16)
Right.around a year left, so had about 18 months or so. And like I said, I wasn't one of those people that really volunteered to go to those things, because I was really focused on work and what I would miss out on, because it's a week out and all these things.Adam Callinan (04:33)
Did you get toldto go? I know that does happen sometimes, or was it really just more like an opportunity came up?Loren Bell (04:38)
It was more like an opportunity. I had some gray space in my calendar and I decided, was like, you know what, let's go out and go ski and play around in the snow. yeah, I'm glad I did. So that's how we met. We met at the airport and then on the bus we started talking and you kind of were wondering like what I was going to do next and I didn't really know what I was going to do next. I had definitely had some thoughts on what I might want to do next and I think we talked about that.you're like, I know if you're going to like that. And it was more like investment banking and going down that road. So he talked me into doing a startup. yeah.Adam Callinan (05:10)
Yeah, there's a couple of things happened in betweenthe first seven minutes of meeting and and getting to that point. But let's back up. How did you get I mean, where are from? Obviously, I know the answer to some of these questions, but I'm asking them anyways, for the sake of context.Loren Bell (05:21)
OriginallyYeah, sure.Yeah, I grew up in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I spent about 17 years there. And then once my parents got divorced, my mom went to Colorado and my dad went to Florida. So I went out to Colorado with my mom for about a year, tried my hand at culinary arts school, didn't work out. And then from there I joined the Air Force, which was a whole another story in itself.Adam Callinan (05:44)
I mean, no, I know we're gonna double click into that because culinaryarts school to 20 years of special operations is quite a shift. So what happened?Loren Bell (05:55)
I realized quickly that I like being on a team. I played sports when I was growing up, football, track, those kind of things. And the people are great people, but the students there, it's a really individual thing, right? There's no teamwork. You're doing everything for yourself. So I kind of missed that dynamic. And also the people just wasn't my tribe. I kind of figured that out pretty quickly.and I kind of wondered what I was going to do next. I'd always thought about joining the military. My mom did a short stint in the Air Force. My grandfather was in Korean War. I had an uncle in Vietnam. we didn't have a long lineage of military service, but we had some sporadic things going, sporadic people joining different times in history. So I wasn't quite sure what I was going to do. So I was thinking, I was like, well, I definitely don't want to go to the Marines. I definitely don't want to go to the Army.But inevitably when you show up to the recruiting station, guys jump on you quick. So the Marines talked to me first and the guy wouldn't leave me alone. I gave him my phone number. I told him what I wanted to do, which I didn't know what I wanted to do. So he kind of tried to guide me into certain things and he's like, well, you can leave in like a week. You can leave in a month. What do you want? And I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to do it that fast. So this went on for about two or three months and he just wouldn't leave me alone. So finally I said, I'm not interested. And then I...Eventually, I made my way to the Air Force recruiter. And even then, I didn't know what I wanted to do. So the recruiter was like, let's take your ASVAB and see where you score and whatnot.Adam Callinan (07:18)
your ASVAB to find that just for the listener.Loren Bell (07:21)
It's anaptitude test that you take to get into the military. places you in what job you're qualified to do based on the scores.Adam Callinan (07:30)
and you do that before you go in or is that part of the entry process?Loren Bell (07:35)
before you go in, and sometimes you take it in high school. I think I took it in my junior or senior year as well. But they wanted me to re-score since I'd been out, I graduated already. yeah, so I took the ASVAB. I did pretty well. So the guy was like, well, what do we need? So he stuck me in missile and space systems or something. And once I started digging in, the bases were North Dakota and, I don't know, Montana. And at that point, I'm like, I definitely want to go there.Adam Callinan (07:39)
really?Yeah, Montanais the worst.Loren Bell (08:02)
Yeah, little did I know, butso I...that. So I said, okay, I'll do that job just to get going. I shipped out pretty soon thereafter. So I was about 18 going on 19 when when all that happens. So once I got to the to the or once I got to basic training, I wasn't I wasn't sure I wanted to do that job. So there was there's some recruiters that came around and said, hey, we have some some special jobs. You have to take a PT test, which is a physical training test, and see where you score on that. And then based on that we canget the ball rolling and try to get you into some other careers. The funny part about that story is that going through basic training, you get an initial issue which is like you're getting your uniforms, you're getting your PT clothes and all these things. Well, I think I wore a 10 at the time or a 10 and a half and they ended up giving me a half the size smaller in running shoes. So this whole time I'm trudging around in these small running shoes and my Achilles is not feeling well.And by the time I took this test, it was really inflamed. So I was a great runner. And then I failed the run on this physical training aptitude test. And luckily, the recruiter saw something in me because I passed the pushups, the sit-ups, I think the pull-ups, and some other things. And he's like, I could tell that you're a runner, but you did terrible on the run. I was like, well, man, I got these small shoes on. And he's like,Do you think you can pass? I'm like, I know I can run a mile and half or two miles, wherever it was, in this certain time. goes, okay, I'll give you a pass this time. So I was like, he's like, you're in. I'm like, okay. He's like, you gotta prove me, like, prove me right. I was like, okay, I'm good. So that's what happened. And that guy gave me a chance. And then from there, I graduated basic training and then went into the tactical air control party, which is, that was my job in the Air Force.got to the training there and that was another route of awakening.Adam Callinan (09:50)
maybe a year and a half ago you were in Montana here in Bozeman with me and we went out on a leisurely hike that turned into a 14 mile round tripper up to an Arctic Lake. It was epic, but it just took a lot longer than we thought it was going to. We basically like stumbled back to the house straight to dinner exhausted. But on thatLoren Bell (10:05)
Right.HaAdam Callinan (10:10)
On that trip, we were chatting through the woods and you told me a story about a point at which you were maybe thinking that this was the wrong decision.Loren Bell (10:20)
Yeah, that was when we first showed up to the schoolhouse from basic training, you go right into it. And the first night, you know, they come screaming and yelling at 3 a.m. You know, you don't know what's what, you know, they're telling you to get outside and they're telling you to grab all these things and you don't have enough time and people are yelling at you. you know, from 3 a.m. until probably 9 a.m., you're just doing.you know, exercises, you're running down to the water, you're getting sandy, you're running back, all these different things. They're spraying you with hoses and, you know, what they're trying to do is weed people out that, you know, to quit. So, and they did, and people were quitting all around me and the pain finally ended around breakfast time and I think that was probably around eight or nine. And, you know, you have five minutes, go take a shower and all these things and...Adam Callinan (10:53)
Yeah. Yeah.Loren Bell (11:05)
And then you you eat breakfast and then the day continues on and the day ended probably around 7 p.m. Maybe 8 p.m. I think, you know, and then, you know, then I think they woke us up again. But in between that time, I called home, you know, my stepfather, he spent about 30 years in the army. So I call home and I'm in tears. I'm like, Mom, I don't know what I did. I think I did. I think I picked the wrong job, you know, and.And I talked to Frank, my stepdad, and he gave me some advice. He said, hey, the only thing you can control is your effort and your attitude. So you pick that, so it's up to you to stay. So I stayed, just keeping that in the back of my mind the whole time, effort and attitude. It's only thing I can control. And that's what pretty much got me through. Because at that point, was like, it was a culture shock. It was a lot of shocks.And at that point in time, was probably the hardest thing I've done. So yeah, that's kind ofAdam Callinan (11:58)
Yeah, it's that I mean, massive. We've talked about this since then, like that massively resonated with me. And it's it's something that I use with my kids a lot. I think being able to, you know, a child or adult alike, being able to appreciate that you can't you're out of most things are out of control. The only things you really control are the way that you perceive them and what you do about them. And outside of that. Yeah. So that's aLoren Bell (12:20)
Absolutely.Adam Callinan (12:24)
something to put a pin in because that is, I think, incredibly valuable in any world, certainly well outside of the military.Loren Bell (12:30)
Yeah, and I definitely carried that forward in anything I did, you know. So, that's good piece of advice.Adam Callinan (12:36)
Sofrom there you went to.into like tack P school. Like there's some, there's some staff. Did you have to go through selection for that? Or is that.Loren Bell (12:42)
Yeah, so.That itkind of was included in that at that point. This was in 20 this was in 2003 So the whole all the selections up to that didn't really exist They were just kind of wean you out through the everyday training So that lasted for I want to say six to eight months something like that there was So attack V controls airstrikes in a tactical situationAdam Callinan (12:48)
Okay.and explain what a TACP does.Loren Bell (13:09)
aviation, they're controlling with either the conventional or special operations forces. And at that point, what's really unique about ATT &CK-P is they start with conventional forces and then you have to go through selections to get your way to being a special operator. So I think today they're actually classified as Air Force Special Warfare, so they're already pushed that way, but you still have to start with conventional forces.And really you're aligned with those forces to advise, assist, and control tactical aircraft and run any drop zone.Adam Callinan (13:41)
So when you do that, you're doing that with non-air force units. You're being embedded in other ground force tactical units.Loren Bell (13:51)
Right. You're always, there are some instances later on down the road where we did some unilateral things, but most of the time you're attached to, could be the army, the Navy and the Marines. It just depends on where you are, but historically it's conventional army units. And you're there to tell the commander like, hey, we can do this, we can do that. Really advise him what to do in sticky situations, but also could also be in a command center telling them to do things, whichYou know, most young guys are like, I don't want to work at the command center. So, but that's actually where that's where I started out. My first, my first rotation. Well, so I graduated at Tech Pei Schoolhouse. And then I got stationed in Fort Drum, New York, which is upstate, super cold, great place. Canada was nearby. that helped. But I got stationed there and, and, oddly enough that the guys there had just come back from the invasion of Iraq. SoAdam Callinan (14:18)
Yeah.Loren Bell (14:39)
You know, we had all this experience and my first supervisor got a Silver Star. So I walk into his office and he's sitting at the desk, Silver Star behind him. So I'm super intimidated. And he's like, do you know why the fuck you're here? And I'm like, Roger Sergeant. And then he scares the shit out of me. He gives me his expectations and then sends me down the road and says, hey, go over there with the rest of the new guys and go learn. So that's what I did.Adam Callinan (14:53)
No.Loren Bell (15:04)
I would say those were very formative years for me because like I said, I had great mentors, had great supervisors, team leaders that had a lot of combat experience. then, I mean, we still had guy from Vietnam at the unit. it was, he had placated himself to not get promoted and he was maybe an E7 or something and he was at the tail end. He'd been in 35 years or something crazy. He got a bunch of waivers.Adam Callinan (15:17)
Well.Loren Bell (15:29)
But yeah, so he'd been in for a while. And so from there, I did my first rotation in Iraq in 2005. And the way that the Tech Pre-Career field used to be, I'm not sure if it is now, but you started off and you were kind of an apprentice. So you're learning. So on the job training was me deploying to Iraq, going to a command center, going out to patrol bases. And really, you are just helping the senior man.You know organize maps set radios all these different things And depending on how that guy is, you know, that's what you're gonna learn and that's how you're gonna move forward So luckily I got I had great, you know Which they're they're called JTACs joint terminal attack controller So you're attached to one of those guys and you're doing all of his admin stuff really setting his radios like I said And luckily I got attached to it to a good one and he taught me a lot. We had a pretty good rotationIt was 2005, and I was in Abu Ghraib. My room was in an old cell at the prison. It was like an ice box. That was crazy. at that time, worked for the former Secretary of Defense, Mark Milley, was the commander there. So the JTAC and I worked for him directly, which was interesting. He was an interesting guy, obviously.made his way up to be the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. that was good. Did that rotation, came back, and then there's a point there where you have to transition to, somebody has to recommend you to be a JTAC. So at first you're not a JTAC. You have to go through the school, you have to go through the training, and then you have to get upgraded to do that. And at this point in time, I'm about 20 years old. I get back, and the guy I was with recommended me to go through the program to be upgraded. And I did.I went to Vegas for five weeks underage, which was fun. Luckily I was underage. I probably wouldn't have graduated. So I went there, did all that. I was probably one of the youngest guys that had been to the schoolhouse in a long time. So everybody was picking on me and giving me the worst scenarios, thinking I'm not going to pass, and all these things. Luckily, with a lot of studying, I made it through. I got back to Fort Drum. And then you have to do aanother probably six months of training to be upgraded and to be able to get an evaluation to make you into a JTAC. So I got that evaluation passed and then my next rotation I was in charge of a young guy at, you know, think I was 21 at that point. So I had another young guy attached to me and we did our first rotation in Afghanistan in 2006 or 2007, which at that point, like the rules were pretty loose still. There was not very many people there andme being young, just volunteered for anything. It was like, I don't want to sit in the command center, I want to go out and do things. And the commander there realized that and he would just send me out to wherever they needed JTAC and I would take my younger guy with me and we would just do that.Adam Callinan (18:23)
So in the piece of reference material, going through the Big Sky Bravery, there's a book that they make you read as part of their version of a selection process, which probably looks a lot different than yours. it's called Alona Dawn. It's about John Chapman, who was in your unit at... Was he there at the same time? Or was he before you? Okay, okay. I don't know what the timelines were on that.Loren Bell (18:44)
No, no, he was way before me. That happened in2001 or 2002.Adam Callinan (18:51)
Okay, so Johnwas in the Air Force. And again, these are all two, the civilian are all things that you're never gonna hear about ever. So he was a combat controller. And the difference between, from my understanding, between a JTAC and a combat controller is they are also like can control the skies, can divert commercial traffic, right?Loren Bell (19:08)
Right, yeah, they're tower rated. So they're like an air traffic controller, but they do it in all stair locations, and they're also tower rated, so they have that going for them. And then historically, that's what they did. They weren't JTACs before the global war on terror. I think maybe like 20 to 30 % of them were. And then after that, there was a shortage of JTACs, and then they started pushing them through. then my primary role was to be a JTAC, and that was kind of their secondary role.Adam Callinan (19:13)
Yeah.Got it.So one of the things in that book that really stood out to me as an ignorant civilian was the fact that you had to, assuming that given the Delta between JTAC and a combat controller is really like the air traffic controller component to it,that you had to be qualified and capable of operating with all of the SF, all of DevGru. And so we're talking about like Delta, Green Berets,Seal Team 6, you had to be able to operate alongside those people. So you had to qualify to do all of the things that those hyper specialized groups had to do, you had to be able to do.Loren Bell (20:49)
Yeah.Right. that's later on down the line. So fast forward, I did about four rotations at Fort Drum and then I volunteered to go to the Rangers. And that's where the first selection in my life began, really, I think. And at that point, actually, at that point there was no selection to go from the conventional side into the Rangers. It was more of a paperwork, kind of like a good old boy system.Adam Callinan (20:57)
Okay.Hmm.Loren Bell (21:22)
But you know, because the career field is so small that they could just call somebody and ask like, hey, is this is he a good dude? How's this? are his skills and so on and so on. And there's a long story how I got to meet other people and I got involved there. But eventually I put in my I put in my packet, which I'm pretty sure it was a paper packet that I mailed in. Maybe I emailed it. I'm not sure. And I didn't hear anything back. There was no there's no, you know,Nobody notified me or anything. So I was at a training event and some guys from the Special Operations side of the Tac-P career field were there and one of them came up to me said, hey man, congratulations, you're part of the unit. And I said, great, awesome. So he's like, you should get your orders here soon. And I was like, And so I got orders, which kind of gives you the movement to go to the next place. So I got my orders and...Adam Callinan (22:03)
HaLoren Bell (22:14)
Before that, before I got those orders, I had a conversation with the superintendent of the unit and he said, hey, where do you want to go? You can go over and be with the Green Berets or you can go over with the Rangers. And he said, based on what I know about you, you should go with the Rangers. And I was like, okay, great. I'll take your, I don't know anything about anything, so I'll go with the Rangers. So I show up to Fort Benning, assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 75th Rangers. Again, I was like 23.youngest guy there, everybody there is probably in their 30s. And they're looking at me. mean, like I was always one to have the, you know, the, start and most starts uniform, the most shiniest boots. And then, and I'm going to beat you in anything physical. Like I'm going to outrun you. I'm going to do anything. I'm going to come in first. So, that's my mentality. That's when I showed up with, and these guys are just looking at me and they're just like, this guy's in for it. You know, so they, they, they really, they welcomed me with open arms and you know, lot of,Adam Callinan (22:58)
No.Loren Bell (23:05)
scenario-based training around the building on my first day, so that was good. So from there, that's kind of when they were kind of switching into more professional selection process to go to that unit. So they realized that like, I'm probably a good Delta or a good Barrier or good...Baseline of what they want. So from there like hey go you you build the selection so Me and two other guys we we kind of built the selection process and then I had to run through it to give the baseline scores which some people probably upset about because I was I was really fast at the time so So some of those things they changed but it was it was it was fun and based on that they were like, okay Hey, you're good man. Like now you go into the training. SoAdam Callinan (23:40)
HaLoren Bell (23:50)
From there, went and I aligned with Ako of Third Bat and really just rolled into their training. So that's where I really like, you know, they take you as a stranger, they drop you into a company, which is a hundred dudes and say, hey man, work with these guys and then you got to fit in. So that's, that was kind of the beginning of that. And that's, that's where I really developed like this mentality of like, this is the team I want to be on. Everybody wants to be here. Everybody's driving to the...towards the same objective and that kind of like steered me towards rest of my career. Like at that point I'd probably been in for four years or five years. So I spent three years at ACO 375 and then from there there's a reconnaissance side of the 75th Ranger Regiment and at our unit there was about four or five guys there and there were some stipulations that said, hey you have to go through Ranger school, you have todo a couple other things to go and at that point there was no selection process for that either. So the guy that was in charge was like, well, hey, know, these guys going to the reconnaissance company have to go through selection, so why don't we just go with them? And so they talked that out with the regiment and they said, okay, yeah. So I was, so I volunteered to go to Ranger school.That was interesting and...From there, I went to pre-Ranger school. So there's a, I think it's a month long program where you have to go through and they kind of teach everything that you're gonna learn in Ranger school so that you, they build you up and you know, kind of, so you can be successful and pass Ranger school, cause that's the objective. So I did that and the regiments pre-Ranger school was pretty difficult, but I met some great guys there and there was guys from my company there. So it kind of worked out well for me.and I went with another tacp. So I passed that and then once that's done, you go from there, you have a day off and then that's one month and then you go into ranger school like on the next Sunday or something. So you have like a day off to go and get all your things like regrouped and go eat real food and shave your head again and then go back. So I did that. The first time I, the first phase I did not pass. So I got recycled, which that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother mental.mental thing because that's depending on when you get recycled. You could be there painting rocks for seven weeks or you could go, you know, like it just depends on the timing. So that was the time because there's a best Ranger competition and that was the time I hit. So it was like, hey, you got to stay here and paint rocks for seven weeks. And based on and my old team is going to be deployed. So I'm like, man, I'm sitting here painting rocks and these guys are gone.Adam Callinan (26:11)
ThankLoren Bell (26:31)
So my old team leader calls the Ranger school, recalls me so I can go deploy. And I come back from that rotation and then I go right back to Ranger school and now it's the winter, which is awful. And then I go straight through and graduate in 2010.Adam Callinan (26:48)
How do you deal with...Like, obviously I know there's a lot of specifics in the process that we can't really get into, but how do you deal with, I mean, these things are like intensely, mentally, physically grueling and they go for a long time. So obviously, know, later on we're gonna tie this all back into a bow around entrepreneurship, but how do you deal with, I mean, and we may not even be to like the real hard stuff yet, but how did you deal or set yourself up to deal with that outside of the...Loren Bell (27:11)
Yeah.Adam Callinan (27:19)
you know, that controlling your effort and whatnot. We talked about earlier. Yeah.Loren Bell (27:23)
attitude.Yeah. I always...I learned early on that physical fitness, if you're the most physical fit in that career field or in the military or anything that you're gonna do, it carries you a long way because your mental capacity is also gonna go with that, right? So doing those hard physical things also takes a hardened mentality to do them. I don't think I'm ever satisfied, so I'm always looking for what's next.If it's harder, I want to do it. I would run 10 miles after work every day. Or I got into cycling and I would ride 30 or 40 miles a day and ride to work. And then on the weekends, I would do century rides and all these things. So I don't know why I gravitated towards that. It just, when I'm doing those things, it can turn off my mind and I just keep going. And also, I...I can see the end. know what's at the, there has to be an objective and I want to meet that objective. So for me, I think that's always it. It's like that carrot. Like I always want to try to get to that, to that carrot, right?Adam Callinan (28:30)
Did they provideyou with, at any point through the process, did they provide you with training on that or is there just an expectation that you develop and have that on your?Loren Bell (28:42)
I think it's kind of ingrained from the beginning, like never quit, right? And you can see guys quitting, and if you have conversations with them, you're like, man, why'd you quit? We were almost done. And I just couldn't take it anymore. And for me, that has never been in my mentality. I'm like, we were almost there.In ranger school, for example, it's the winter, we're in North Georgia, it's negative five out, we just walked up this big hill, I think we were almost done. The guy next to me had passed his patrols, which is what you have to do to go to the next phase.But he had rubber neck, which is when the back of your neck gives out and you can't pick your head up. And so he's completed this whole phase with rubber neck. He passed his patrol, he's sitting next to me, he's like, dude, I can't take it anymore. I'm like, you just passed, we were about to go to Florida in the sunshine, and you'll be fine, we're gonna go eat treats after this and all these things, you eat a buffet of candy and stuff after you're done each phase. And he just quit, and I'm like.Adam Callinan (29:33)
Ha ha ha.Loren Bell (29:37)
I couldn't believe it. I was just like, dude, you're done. Like the next phase is easy. So I've never had that mentality. And I don't know where it comes from. I don't know if it's from how I grew up or just based on what I learned in the military, but I've always been that way of just like, I'm not going to quit. I'm going to finish. Maybe I'm just too dumb to quit. That might be it too.Adam Callinan (30:00)
the fact that there's like a known thing that happens that's called a rubber neck where the muscles to the back of your neck say F it and stop working. And that's just like a thing that happens is again, this is this is all like the resets of perspective that I think are so helpful.Loren Bell (30:05)
Yeah. Yeah, it's wild. see you guys. You guys, yeah, you see like a group of guys walking around like candy canes and you're just like, huh,I did not want that to happen to me. And you're cold. I mean, the conditions were not good for him. I mean, it was negative five and it was, you know, you have the worst equipment possible. with the least amount of food and the least amount of sleep and likeAdam Callinan (30:22)
That sounds terrible.Sure, sure.Loren Bell (30:34)
took a toll on him and he quit. And I was very surprised. But I guess that's kind been my guiding light of like, hey, what's next? And when I graduated Ranger School and I went to the reconnaissance company, I kind of missed a part of their selection. So they're like, hey, go do this patrol in Wales with the team that I'd never met before. It's like six guys. And I'm like, what patrol? What is this? And it's called the Cambrian Patrol.and it's through the Brecon's Beacons of Wales. And you show up, you don't have, I think we use the Brits equipment, which is not good. And it's, you move 50K and you have, I think 20 or 30 hours with weight through the Brecon's Beacons to complete this patrol. You have to go swim Alpine Lake and all these different things. It's a competition. It's a worldwide competition. you'll have, you know, soft.Adam Callinan (31:18)
Is it a contest or is it like they're actually patrolling for something? Okay, got it.Loren Bell (31:27)
guys from Norway and Germany and everywhere, a lot of NATO guys. And so I joined this team, we went over and like, all right, let's do it, you know, and we did it. and I mean, for example, one of the guys on my team had a, was walking with an IV because he had pneumonia. So to finish this thing, like it was just, that's just the way these guys are. like, how am I to quit when this guy's walking with an IV and has pneumonia? So we finished that. I think we came in second, we got beat by the Packies.Adam Callinan (31:47)
Yeah.Loren Bell (31:53)
Surprisingly enough, but they have British officers. So I'll get on that but they knew what was going on. We did not And then the guys there were from the reconnaissance company. They're like, this guy's you're in like that was it So like I didn't quit I just stuck with these guys and they're like, okay, you're good So I was there for a few years and then I'm like, okay, what's next like there, you know, there has to be something elseAdam Callinan (31:57)
Ha ha ha.Yeah.Loren Bell (32:14)
And at that point of time, I think there was only two or three tech peas at the next level and that next level would be at a special mission unit like you're talking about, know, a Delta or SEAL Team 6. so I was like, well, how do I get there? I want to do that. I got in contact with the guys there, talked to them through the process, and then I went to a selection in 2012, showed up there, had no idea what I was in for. I was just like, all right, let's do it.Like I said, there's only two or three guys that have done it before. And yeah, I passed selection and then went through OTC in 2013 and operator training course. So that's where you, like you're trying to explain earlier was that's how you learn those skills to be aligned or attached, or if you're doing something on your own with those guys. Yeah.Adam Callinan (32:51)
OTC. Okay.Got it. And then, so you go do that. And then at some point you move off into kind of a non-existent unit doing non-existent things in other places around the world.Loren Bell (33:20)
Right. Yeah, so I did the tactical stuff for a couple years and then from there I moved into more of sensitive activities unit and I spent eight years there and that's where I retired out of. And that was another selection as well.Adam Callinan (33:33)
So when we...Okay, yeah, I won't push on that. You'll be saying pineapple a lot.Loren Bell (33:43)
Yeah, no,that selection's not, well, I guess it is a little bit physical, but it's more a mental challenge of, yeah.Adam Callinan (33:49)
Yeah, I'm sure.then we get to 2000 and was it 22 that we met? 20, yeah, it was in the fall of 22, or I guess January of 22, was on a winter task force. We've done two of them together, because you were there for that summer one, the following. Yeah, that was fun. for...Loren Bell (33:59)
Yeah, 22 I think.Yeah.The summer one, yeah.Adam Callinan (34:14)
context for the listener, when you get to the end of your military career like that at 20 years retirement is retirement with full benefits, right? And the military will effectively pay for the last six months of that you can go and do an internship. And there's a couple of programs that do it. The one that we did was skill bridge. Yeah. So we on, on that task force in January, you know, you were back to the very beginning of this, like you were talking about the internships and things.Loren Bell (34:28)
Right, yeah, that-Right, SkillBridge, right.Adam Callinan (34:42)
that you have access to through that are great jobs for most people. know, there it's like that. It's, know, analysts had an investment bank. It's analysts or, you know, operate some operational position at JP Morgan. But, that to me as a business operator entrepreneur didn't seem like that was a place you were going to enjoy giving the fact that you had spent the last 20 years doing really hard things and really hard places where like risk was real under real duress.which I immediately saw as, well, that translates perfectly to entrepreneurship.Loren Bell (35:16)
Which I had no idea. know, again, I was really discovering myself again and what I wanted to do. And more importantly, I figured out what I didn't want to do. And you kind of helped me with that. And some other programs, Honor Foundation, 51 Vets, these different organizations that help out special operators, you know, until the next chapter of their life. I really used those things to figure out what I didn't want to do. And I went and toured Deloitte and McKinsey andJP Morgan, all these different things. Talk to these guys and they're like, hey, associates are working 80 to 100 hours a week. And I'm like, I've already done that. I'm good. don't, I would, I mean, if I'm going to do that, I want to do it for myself or, you know, with somebody that I enjoy being around and not for a giant organization or a fortune 500 companies. Yeah. So that's, you definitely like helped me, uh, change my mindset of like,Adam Callinan (35:44)
Yeah.Yeah.Loren Bell (36:08)
maybe a startup is where it's at because it's chaos. I like chaos and I do well. I do well when things are dynamic and always changing. I mean, in the military, especially where I was, you'll work on a project for five years and never see the fruition of it. And you don't even know what happens because you go and move somewhere else, you hand it off. And so for me, was like, this is perfect.Adam Callinan (36:27)
Yeah.So we're now, you know, now it's we're in now mid early March of 2025 when we're recording this. So Pentane, you know, we launched the company launched on the back of some early success operating systems out of spreadsheets. And that was about the time that we met. Like we had I had just kicked off the converting all this.complexity and math in spreadsheets that worked really well inside of companies. We had just kicked off converting that into a software platform. So it took, it did take a little bit of time for you to get through the system. Like you couldn't formally start until I think July of that year as an, from an internship standpoint through SkillBridge. And then you were also in a international MBA program, which was great. I know you got to go and see and do a lot of interesting things with a different type of people.Loren Bell (37:12)
July, correct?Yeah, it really, itAdam Callinan (37:25)
than you wereused to working with at least, yeah.Loren Bell (37:27)
Yeah. And again, it kind of goes with that pattern of dropping me into somewhere and like, you know, figure it out. Especially with that NBA program, because it ran parallel with with us starting Penta and like you're telling me like all these financial terms and all this. I have no idea what any of this means. And then I'm getting the same thing in my NBA program is like, you know, here's corporate finance and here's the here's this. And I'm like, boy, I don't know any of this stuff either.So luckily it did run parallel and I was learning both things at the same time so it kind of transferred over. And that MBA program kind of really opened up my mind because the cohort was 39 people from 29 different countries and there was only one other American. And they're all executives from...from either their own companies or these big companies in Europe because the school was out of Europe or in Africa or in Asia. So like it was a great intro to me to business and to like what's next and what else exists. And I think it also helped me really understand what we were doing at Pentain and why it mattered. Like you did a great job of telling me why it mattered and like your perspective on things and then I see how other people use those metrics and I go, okay, this.Adam Callinan (38:30)
Yeah.Loren Bell (38:38)
this is why it matters, then helps me try to to explain it pentane to them. They're like, oh, I wish I had that. And it's like, OK, cool. I get it now.Adam Callinan (38:47)
Yeah, it isn't interesting to like see both sides, because the people in your MBA class, it was limited. It was only like 10 or 15 people, right? But they were all heads of like massive companies. I mean, none of them were like startup founders. 38.Loren Bell (38:55)
Yeah, was 38 people, 38.Yeah, there's, they're all executives, either CEOs, COOs, CTOs, whatever, you know, from the C-suite. There are some, there were entrepreneurs in there as well. The guy that started VK in Russia, like the Russian Facebook was in my cohort. So there are some tech startup guys. And everybody was skeptical of me because,Adam Callinan (39:19)
Was he skeptical of you?Loren Bell (39:25)
Becausewhen I started the program, I was still in the Air Force. So I had to go to the security office and tell them what I was doing. And they gave me a, you work for the Department of Defense and you're a senior operations manager. What does that do? I don't know what that is. That sounds cool. I'll do that. So I stand up my first day there and they're like, what sector are you from? And as soon as I said Department of Defense, I'm just looking around and the Russians and Chinese, they're just like, okay, all right.Adam Callinan (39:37)
Yeah.That's funny. Yeah.Loren Bell (39:53)
We're up to it. We know what you're up to.Yeah, so there are a little, at the end of it, we're great friends. And even there was a Iraqi guy in my class. He is the CEO of a medical company or pharmaceutical company in Baghdad. And the first day there, he's like, oh, where are from? I'm United States. And he goes, what do you do? And I said, oh, I work for the Department of Defense. And he goes, man, you fucked up my country. And I was like, OK.Adam Callinan (40:19)
Sorry. Well,Loren Bell (40:22)
Alright.Adam Callinan (40:23)
nice to meet you.Loren Bell (40:24)
Yeah, you want to be friends? And we're friends till today.Adam Callinan (40:28)
So now we're a year and a half past that you've been involved in like true startup from nothing to something. to be fair, we're just getting to the point that it's something now. we're completely rebuilt and relaunched a product a month ago. It's now gaining momentum like literally as of yesterday.And today, like the things that we've been working on since then are starting to take off and the snowball ball is beginning to build. How has that process and the, I don't caveat it. How has the process been for you, you know, over the last year and a half?Loren Bell (41:12)
We discussed this before and it's a different risk. You take on a different risk than you did when you signed the line or you volunteered for so many things to put your life on the line. You understand those risks, right? Like, I could not come home, I could come home maimed or whatever. And you understand that. In the startup world, you're like, I'm gonna throw it all on the line and maybe I don't get anything. And you're just like, let's do that. I don't know the risk, I don't know what's gonna happen. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad.And so for me to internalize that, it took a lot of...deep introspection to say, okay, man, is this actually what you want to do? are you, are you, do you have a solid enough foundation to, do this? Right? Are you durable enough to like go through this and, and, and, and mentally take this on? And for me, I was like, well, yeah, sure. I can do it. Let's try it. You know, like, I don't know. And, and there's, it's highs and lows. I mean, at the beginning, I really questioned, said, man, is this what I should be doing? Yeah. You know, it's like,Adam Callinan (42:12)
Yeah, you and me both, buddy.Loren Bell (42:15)
Yeah, we've had some great conversations together. like, man, I don't know, are we doing the right thing? Like, is this right? And especially I see my friends that are retired and they're doing something else. And not that they took the easy road, but they took a lucrative road, you know, down, you know, going to a defense contractor, you know, staying in that realm. And for me, I was like, man, I'm done with that. I want to move on and do something else. that was a whole nother risk that I was like, I have to start at the bottom. And then we had this conversation. I said, man, I'll start at zero. I don't know anything like.And I'll do anything. I'll learn. I'm pretty adaptable. Definitely highs and lows. I think more so now. I can really correlate it to my time in the service. You could build something up and then some commander could say, no, we're not doing that anymore. And it kind of correlates because we've built a lot of things and now they're in the back. We don't use them anymore. I spent a lot of time connecting a lot of things and now we don't use them anymore. And a lot of people, they would be discouraged and they go, man,Adam Callinan (43:01)
Yeah.Loren Bell (43:09)
Like I just wasted time. And for me, I look at it as like, I didn't know how to do that before, but now I do know how to do it. So it's an experience thing. So I kind of take that mentality too, is like that learned experience, like you can't buy experience. if I'm doing something and maybe we don't use it, or maybe it's, you know, we find something better, at least I tried it and I can least talk through and kind of go through there.Adam Callinan (43:32)
Yeah, mean, that's a huge part of, of startup is we're going to build a lot of stuff that we're not going to use. I mean, the goal obviously is as we continue to do it is less of that happens, but you got to throw a lot of spaghetti against the wall.Loren Bell (43:37)
I'm realizing that,Absolutely, yeah.And I think now I've graduated my MBA program. I've done a lot more research in the companies. I've done a lot more research in the different startups and these different sectors. And I've really dumped the lexicon of the government or the military. more so my mind is always thinking that way towards business. And it's really helped me a lot because, like I said, those ups and downs, I'm like, man, I don't know. I should probably do something else. I don't know if this is for me.Adam Callinan (44:16)
Ha ha ha!Loren Bell (44:19)
But I think now it's definitely for me and I really enjoy it. I couldn't have chosen a better path because I don't know which path I would chosen and how they would have turned out. So I don't kind look back on those things.Adam Callinan (44:32)
Yeah, I mean that.The internal line of questioning around, I doing the right thing? Is this ever going to happen? Is it ever going to work is completely human and we all have it. I mean, I literally have it all the time. am chock full of imposter syndrome all the time. this, mean, I've done some other things that have gone pretty well. I've also done a lot of things that have been complete disasters. But the part that is interesting to me is like, I have the-Loren Bell (44:49)
YouYeah.Adam Callinan (45:03)
resilience to be okay, like mentally managing those things, partly because I've done them before. So like, have an expectation those things are going to happen now. And the other part is because of some of the hard things that I've built into my life to try to create an, one ounce of the durability that you have from your 20 years of doing like real hard stuff under real duress with real risk. And there is obviously a difference in, you know, the financial, you could lose money risk orI mean, I guess if you're willing to put everything on the line, you could lose everything. But like, what does that really mean? I mean, you're not gonna die. Like the worst case scenario in this does not include death or dismemberment. So it's like, that's the part that I always have found really interesting in having people like you in my life is it's such an amazing way to reset perspective for me.Loren Bell (45:32)
everything. Right. Right.Right. And that's that'sYeah, like I said, it's a whole different perspective for me. I remember we sitting in your kitchen and we were having this conversation about the risk, and I'm like, this is a whole new risk for me. And I really leaned on you to like, man, it's good, this is normal, cool. I'm like, okay, got it, let's do it.Adam Callinan (46:09)
Yeah. Are there any parting words, anything you want to have to share? Any way where you want people to find you if you want to be found? I don't know if you want to be found or not at this point.Loren Bell (46:23)
Parting words, really, unfortunately, know, Frank has passed away and my mother passed away, but those words that got me through.early on of those things that you can control. If you're always thinking that way, effort and attitude, anything else is easy. Like anything else, you can't control it. But if you're in a shitty situation, have a good attitude about it and put max effort and you're gonna get through it. So I guess those are my parting words and as far as finding me, I'm on LinkedIn.Adam Callinan (46:54)
Yeah. Perfect. That's about the only place I spend any time too. Well, I mean, honestly, Manic, I know you don't love hearing this, but it goes without saying, I deeply appreciate everything that you committed to and sacrificed for. And, and I also deeply appreciate your willingness to go on this differently risk-filled journey, with me, your organizational structure is something that I massively lack, and, and benefit from.Loren Bell (46:54)
youYeah.Adam Callinan (47:20)
Avenue on the team.Loren Bell (47:21)
Yeah, and appreciate the opportunity. Thank you. Thanks.Adam Callinan (47:23)
Yeah, it's great. Thanks, Ben.